Disabled Lives Matter

S1-Ep25_Gary_Norman

August 19, 2021

Disabled Lives Matter
Season 1, Episode 25
Co-Hosts: Nadine Vogel & Norma Stanley
Guest: Gary Norman

Intro: [Music playing in background] Disabled Lives Matter... here we go!

Voiceover: Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the disabled lives matter podcast with co-hosts Nadine Vogel and Norma Stanley… yay!

Nadine Vogel: Hello everyone, this is nadine vogel your co host of the podcast disabled lives matter I joined by my fabulous co host norma stanley.

NORMA STANLEY: Greetings everybody, how you doing.

Nadine Vogel: Good so norma This is just going to be another interview to show why disabled lives matter and it is about a movement, not just a podcast.

NORMA STANLEY: Absolutely awesome movement.

Nadine Vogel: yeah so today we're really excited we are joined by Gary Norman who's an attorney he is someone with a disability and I just you know I just found his journey.

Nadine Vogel: and his experience is really, really interesting and really illustrates why we say disabled lives matters so welcome welcome welcome Mr Norman.

Gary Norman: Thank you so much, this is my pleasure to be with you, I hope, certainly my life has mattered I think it's important.

Gary Norman: In the history of men and women that we make an impact before we leave this great plane and, hopefully, some of my journey will show that i've done that, and hopefully maybe share some wisdom too.

Nadine Vogel: Well, that would be great so Gary tell us about your personal journey with disability let's start there.

Gary Norman: So it has been a long one i'm a person who was visually impaired and now I will place myself in the blindness camp, I have a rare genetic eye disorder called retinitis pigmentosa.

Gary Norman: Sometimes it impacts people much older in life, but, for me, for better or for worse, I was diagnosed with rp when I was 10 years old.
-

Gary Norman: In a similar fashion, my brother was diagnosed because he's nine years older than me as he was a teenager at about 19 so i've lived with visual impairment blindness, for some time now.

Gary Norman: And all the things that are good and perhaps negative about that journey.

Gary Norman: And then certainly More specifically, I started off for losing my night vision and about the fifth grade I lost my peripheral vision and about the seventh grade.

Gary Norman: And then I would say that I kind of pretend pretend that I could see print, but I really lost my ability to read standard print about the ninth grade and so everything in between it's been quite an adventure.

Nadine Vogel: Well, it sounds like it um and you know why it's it's amazing to me how individuals like yourself with disabilities.

Nadine Vogel: You know, can take such a positive and proactive view on life and business and yet others who don't have disabilities don't get it right, they just don't understand it, for some reason.

Nadine Vogel: My understanding is that you also have credentials in journalism and publishing.

Gary Norman: yeah no yeah for sure we're we're trying to be diverse in our career path, I think.

Gary Norman: Some people disagree with me some people I think perhaps say that as a disabled professional you need to specialize and I think that's a legitimate point of view, but from my own personal point of view.

Gary Norman: I really think it's important, at least in my sense of the great history of lawyers that we kind of have a lot of diversity and a lot of.

Gary Norman: irons in the fire so journalism is one thing that i've really been kind of working on lately, I have a column in our legal newspaper in Maryland and then i'm also a newly minted.

Gary Norman: feature contributing author at government loop, which is kind of a online leadership platform for young leaders and public service.

Nadine Vogel: that's great, and I think my understanding is that with your column in the Maryland daily record you focus on policy and how to influence policy as a lawyer, with a guide dog Is that correct.

Gary Norman: That is correct, so I think this journey with guide dogs, which has been since 2001 when I first obtained my first dog Langer.

Gary Norman: has been this really rich one that's not only taught me a lot, but I think gives me a lot to share with the public.

Gary Norman: So both my my formal writing or more legalistic writing even in kind of a newspaper context.

Gary Norman: or even my new kind of like leadership writing with government loop really focuses on this idea of my journey with a disability, as a dog handler and I think that's just so more unique than using a cane.

Gary Norman: In some ways and depending on the context really either talking about public policy us with the maryland daily record and and how i'm influencing that, as a lawyer, with a disability.

Gary Norman: Or the context of government loop trying to share sort of my wisdom as an employee or leader, with a disability, and what that means, to have an active or meaningful career in spite of perhaps barriers or accommodations issues.

Nadine Vogel: yeah no absolutely and and I also understand that you're the first Chair with a guide dog at the board of Commissioners So could you tell us a little bit about that experience.

Gary Norman: Sure, so that's been a rich, perhaps even complicated one but it's been one that i've been honored to hold.

Gary Norman: I was appointed under two different governors as a person who promotes nonpartisan service.

Gary Norman: I was first appointed by governor o'malley in Maryland and then more recently reappointed by governor hogan to a new year six year term retroactive to 2017.

Gary Norman: And then, and our board under the statute, we have a specifically designated chair and then as a custom we've created a vice chair, so I served as an associate Commissioner from about 2005 or six until about.

Gary Norman: 2016 and then I was Vice chair from 2016 to 18 and then the board elected me in 2018.

Gary Norman: And since we've really been trying to rebuild the board under my chair in partnership with my really talented Commissioners.

Gary Norman: It will be a limited term I I know there's something about making ourselves obsolete, but I do so, happily, because I believe there's an importance in the change of power.

Gary Norman: And my term will end because of that this December, basically, and then in terms of the disability piece of that I think it's been this.

Gary Norman: This balance between sharing my experience and even trying to educate our staff about disability, because I think frankly they've never seen a chair, with a guide dog.

Gary Norman: In recent history but also really being a fair arbiter and servant of all the people have of just a whole range of different kinds of issues that we cover and try to protect against in terms of antidiscrimination so everything from L-G-B-T-Q, plus too.

Gary Norman: Basic kind of like what we call commercial discrimination or sort of like issues around contractors and then really trying to be a visible chair, with a guide dog, which of course means very interesting.

Gary Norman: benefits and challenges of navigating spaces or meeting with people or just them, and having a reaction to me as a blind person and.

Gary Norman: For for it stress or its workload it's been really an honor and a good learning leadership experience for me.

Nadine Vogel: Well, you know it's interesting norma didn't you have like a dog like show up at your House, one day, I think I remember this recently.

NORMA STANLEY: yeah

Nadine Vogel: with Sierra.

Nadine Vogel: was just loving life.

NORMA STANLEY: yeah we have a doberman pinscher puppy to follow me home, one day, a couple weeks ago and i'm hoping we can train her to be a therapy companion.

NORMA STANLEY: But the canine PhD didn't think it would be a good fit so i'm not gonna be able to keep her unfortunately and I i'm kind of sad about this and sierra's gonna be sad about that, it's a beautiful dog.

Nadine Vogel: Any dogs dogs are amazing right.

NORMA STANLEY: oh yeah.

Nadine Vogel: My.daughter my oldest daughter has a service dog for her disabilities, and you know, one of the things i'd love to ask you about.

Gary Norman: Yeah sure

Nadine Vogel: You know, we talk about how we work with our service dogs or guide dogs, but I feel like the dogs have impact on us beyond just what they do right beyond just the tools of daily living that they help with I would love to hear your perspective on that.

Gary Norman: Maybe not everybody thinks this way, but I think the outside world is sentient active world and dogs as part of that are included so.

Gary Norman: While each of my dogs are certainly had the guide dog role, which is.

Gary Norman: One that we can talk about they've been so much more to me each dog has been a chapter of my life and they've influenced each chapter of my life.

Gary Norman: in ways that are beyond just helping to get from here to there so.

Gary Norman: Personally professionally emotionally spiritually and everything that i've learned as i've grown has been because of my partnership with each of these dogs, not only on a.

Gary Norman: level of again getting me from here to an escalator but in terms of.

Gary Norman: learning how to, I think, to be a better human, to be a better leader and also to be perhaps hopefully a better person connected with the outside world and.

Gary Norman: I hope that maybe in these kind of inclusion revolutions we're living through, maybe we're starting to realize that.

Gary Norman: Much more of us are starting to realize that truth that that these dogs these these sentient beings really have such an impactful role on us as humans and.

Gary Norman: Therefore, perhaps, while maybe i'm not necessarily promoting veganism which was certainly something I worked on with the animal law section, but maybe we could all just have a better sensitivity to our outside world and our animal friends 

Nadine Vogel: yeah. Absolutely, and I, and I believe you've had you on your third guide dog where you had Mr langer Mr Pilot and currently Mr Bowie.

Gary Norman: Oh that's right yeah langer worked 2001 to 2010 many service animal handlers may not be able to keep their dogs in retirement, but i've been very blessed to keep each one in retirement.

Gary Norman: So as soon as I retired langer I went to school for pilot and California and unfortunately pilot didn't have as long of a career as langer he worked from 2010 to 2017 and unfortunately brother pilot went to the celestial lodge of he fought cancer and soon as he retired.

Gary Norman: We lost him in 2019.

Gary Norman: And then i've been working Bowie since December 2017 i'm at a new school new york's in the New York City area.

NORMA STANLEY: Whats the average time to have a dog, I mean what is the average time to have one. You've had your dogs for quite a long time what's the average amount of time that it tend to be able to stay with. the human.

Gary Norman: um.

Gary Norman: yeah sure so in terms of a guide dog, we like to shoot for seven eight or nine years nine years, perhaps, is a long kind of timeframe.

Gary Norman: With langer he was solid at he was one of my best guidedog workers, of the three he was solid for eight and then I push them a little bit for the ninth because I was in post Grad school and then.

Gary Norman: Pilot just developed unfortunately some anxiety issues and then he started with the cancer problems, so that really did shortness career a little bit.

Nadine Vogel: So how difficult, is it if it's difficult, you know transitioning you develop these amazing you know relationships with these dogs right dependencies many ways on each other and then you have to transition what's the impact of that.

Gary Norman: is really is so profound.

Gary Norman: I thought perhaps it would be easier over time and I think if you talk with different guide dog handlers each transition is unique and.

Gary Norman: Each transition is exciting and happy and really outstanding and yet each transition is often very emotionally taxing.

Gary Norman: and difficult because you're saying goodbye to a partner you've worked with so many different years and that very unique tight relationship.

Gary Norman: So it is a challenging transition it's a difficult one emotionally physically and even physically, I would say, because each dog guides a little different they each.

Gary Norman: kind of have the textbook skills, but how you work with them and how you communicate with them really in my experience varies across dogs what my langer needed.

Gary Norman: was different or would be different than what pilot needed and that has also been true with Bowie.

Gary Norman: What motivated pilot or got him to focus is different than how I work with Boeing now and and in learning that I think that's a huge lesson and leadership and in life in terms of dealing with other people .

Nadine Vogel: right right.  And I mean look it's no different than the rest of us right, we all have our own personalities.

Nadine Vogel: You know.

Nadine Vogel: We could have 10 law school graduates, you know they go to the same law school and practice, the same kind of law, but they practice differently.

Gary Norman: I think that's absolutely right.

Nadine Vogel: Though I I see it as that.

Nadine Vogel: So you know i'm just i'm curious and maybe we should you know take go to commercial break in a minute and come back, but one of the things that really like to talk about.

Nadine Vogel: And norma are you and I have had many conversations about this, but it's it's you know, disability, as it relates to this crazy pandemic we've all been going through a covid.

Nadine Vogel: And some of its unique issues, perhaps i'll say for individuals with disabilities.

Nadine Vogel: I suspect that you have some really great information on that and perspective, I know that you've worked a long time on health related disabilities.

Nadine Vogel: Disparities excuse me for people with disabilities and I think that i'd love to hear more about pre covid what your perspective was on that.

Nadine Vogel: And then during covid and post covid that if that if that makes sense, let's go to a short commercial break and when we come back let's attack that so I think there's a lot packed in there, so for our listeners stay tuned we will be right back with you.

Voiceover:  And now it's time for a commercial break.

[COMMERCIAL]
Hi, I'm here to talk to you about springboards. 2021, 7th annual disability connect forum, save the date. It's happening Tuesday, September 14 via live stream, you know, we tag the phrase, quote unquote, We Are Better Together. Why? Because together we can achieve change, especially since this forum focuses on the intersectionality persons with disabilities. The lgbtqa+ community and Veterans, the major issues impacting these constituents and more So join us for the conversation again, the 2021 disability connect Forum livestream, Tuesday, September 14th, to learn more. Purchase a ticket and register visit w-w-w consult springboard.com. Front slash 2021 - disability - connect Front / hashtag. Welcome. Can't wait to see you there.

Voiceover:  And now back to our show.

Nadine Vogel: Hello Hello everyone and welcome back to today's episode of disabled lives matter norma Stanley my co host and I are interviewing Gary Norman.

Nadine Vogel: And right before we went on commercial break we had asked Gary to start talking about the work that he has focused on for quite some time on health.

Nadine Vogel: related disparities relative to people with disabilities so Gary let's talk about that pre covid what the perspective in the practices and then we'll move into the covid ear.

Gary Norman: So I would say they're mixed in a way that pre covid or pre pandemic health disparities existed for people.

Gary Norman: with disabilities or by people with disabilities and.

Gary Norman: Whether it's because of covid or not, that continue to exist and covid only shed a spotlight on that that data and that issue.

Gary Norman: And maybe it come home to many people who are not perhaps have historically marginalized status so whether that's people of color people disabilities L-G-B-T-Q-plus individuals pre covid, however, specifically and, as now, I worked on health disparities in the.

Gary Norman: sense of being a manager.

Gary Norman: Can you think of federal attorney and healthcare and and also as a senior advisor to you.

Gary Norman: know at the Center on medicine.

Gary Norman: At the Center of medicine and law where I held.

Gary Norman: dialogues.

Gary Norman: and worked to try to bring attention to the issues, specifically.

Gary Norman: People disabilities.

Gary Norman: For a long time, perhaps in public health, there was a sense that disparity still exists, but often or sometimes people disabilities weren't included in that conversation.

Gary Norman: So I think as as we've grown and understanding about disparities, because because of covid we're finally starting to accept that A there are disparities, but people disabilities and B.

Gary Norman: Hopefully, as a society because of the inclusion revolution, we have to address healthcare disparities like we have to address every other umteenth issue that we're doing and grappling with.

Gary Norman: As a society, I think, in a positive way.

Gary Norman: Of course, there are always negatives to anything but largely.

Gary Norman: The inclusion revolution is really spotlighting that maybe we haven't always treated people of color well in our society, maybe we haven't always treating people with disabilities and.

Gary Norman: That that's not the I don't think we should blame anybody for that, but I think we.

Gary Norman: should say.

Gary Norman: This is our past.

Gary Norman: We need to accept our past.

Gary Norman: And we need to come together to address these issues, whether that's disparities in healthcare disparities and a good living for people or any other way that we can make ourselves really truly live our.

Gary Norman: American tenants.

Gary Norman: I have always fretted with being the civil rights chair I deal with what I feel is negative conversation, like the United States is bad.

Gary Norman: And what I say is that this country is incredibly.

Gary Norman: unique and wonderful, but as one of the greatest countries in human history we have even more responsibility to be the leader.

Gary Norman: And to address when we have failed, and we have failed in many ways as Americans in terms of disparities and inequities and now we have a chance that we have learned more that we can do better.

Gary Norman: And I think that's that's why it's been one form of honor to be a civil rights, Chairman and hopefully other God willing, more important more high level positions i'll have in the feature.

Nadine Vogel: So norma you and I have had conversations about these issues. Of implicit and explicit bias. 

Nadine Vogel: And you know it doesn't work, does it exist or not exist.

Nadine Vogel: And Gary you know my personal opinion is that you know, there is no such thing as unconscious bias right.

Gary Norman: You know it doesn't mean that people are.

Nadine Vogel: Trying to be mean it's just based on their experiences, but as it relates to health disparities, I do feel like bias kind of somehow feeds this I, what do you think.

Gary Norman: bias for sure or.

Gary Norman: Even bias in terms of people not not being open to educating themselves as they should be it's, not to say that if i'm a nurse right or i'm a nurse practitioner which.

Gary Norman: I have one right now, who, I think, is not as disabilities where's my former primary care Doc is not that they're bad people or even incompetent professionals but I.

Gary Norman: Think incompetent in the sense that.

Gary Norman: Any professional should first do no harm and they should also serve customers and the healthcare system to the best ability possible.

Gary Norman: If that means your patient is green blue or otherwise, then you should really meet that patient where they are unfortunately these disparities grow from the sense that every patient is the same and that's just not true.

Nadine Vogel: Right right and I, and I think that you know and again norma you and I have had these conversations that you know we talked about a equality it doesn't mean we should be treating everyone the same where we need to give everyone the same access.

Nadine Vogel: Right and and. that's what you're saying.

Gary Norman: I think so yeah and.

Gary Norman: I just think also that we really need to work with providers or.

Gary Norman: deliverers of healthcare and really nudge them on this issue because there's a lot of work to do in terms of making health care, accessible, inclusive and usable by people with disabilities and and not in some sort of charity model, but I would. Say for.

Gary Norman: Everybody we're customers doctor or our service delivery provider, where the customers, they need to do a better job of being good customer service oriented practitioners.

Nadine Vogel: Absolutely, and you know it's interesting I I just this week, I had a conversation with a major hospital, I talked to hospitals and med schools and teaching hospitals, all the time.

Nadine Vogel: About allowance from work to come in and train and do some training at the Med school level nursing schools, you know grand rounds anything, and you know it's always I always get met with Oh well, that's yeah that's interesting but.

Nadine Vogel: it's always the but but we don't time but we don't need it, but whatever and it's just very frustrating as as the parent of an adult with daughter with disabilities and norma the same for you, I know.

Nadine Vogel: This is something that's like nails on a chalkboard for us.

Gary Norman: I hear you work I think we're making progress, and I think the health care industry is making progress, but there's there's a lot of work to do, hence why put together a panel that's happening tomorrow on American healthcare lawyers on health care accessibility.

Nadine Vogel: Oh excellent excellent So how do you feel about technology right, it means that you know, especially with covid and everybody, you have these.

Nadine Vogel: You know virtual doctor's visits, all of these things So how do you feel the technology weaves into this do you think it's helpful, do you think it's hurtful relative to these disparities that we're talking about.

Gary Norman: I think technology provides incredible amounts of promise whether that's Tele health or the ability to me with you via zoom platform or any other kind of online platform, perhaps.

Gary Norman: Or whether that is perhaps even conducting mediation online I was just talking with the court system earlier this afternoon about making sure that future online ADR assess is successful, so that.

Gary Norman: Is short there's a lot of promise and a lot opportunity, maybe wasn't present 10 or 15 years ago, on the other hand, with technology or emerging technologies, we also have some.

Gary Norman: Some guardrails and we need to be aware of in terms of whether they were some disparities bias or discrimination so.

Gary Norman: I spoke earlier this year at the International Conference trying to provide the disability lawyer perspective about technology, I would say that i'm a tech optimist, but I also am.

Gary Norman: Someone who you know personally struggles with V-P-Ns every day, I know that technology could also worse in these conditions, so I think machine learning.

Gary Norman: Probably has already done a lot of good for people and could do good, but we need to make sure that we have fair algorithms that they don't worsen discrimination and one example I talked about is is sort of the article I hope to eventually get publishes.

Gary Norman: Working remotely as an attorney really has helped me lessen my stress is saved me a lot of money in terms of transportation costs with lift.

Gary Norman: On the other hand, we are aware that there are instances with employers, which employment by people disabilities never been great, but it can only perhaps worseen potentially because of Ai, we know that.

Gary Norman: There is like is zip recruiter type platforms that's just one that comes to mind where they're using different kinds of Ai technologies and.

Gary Norman: If we're not careful about how we make sure that we include people of color people disabilities as we set up those systems those systems will perhaps exclude more people than the help and I think that will be to the lessening of all of us.

Nadine Vogel: yeah no I agree completely.

Nadine Vogel: Though you know, sometimes on this show not too often, but sometimes we get a little controversial and I know I make Norma nervous.

Gary Norman: Like.

Nadine Vogel: Oh, where are we going where are we going on, but I believe that that Gary you have been a voice for death with dignity legislation in Maryland and and I know that that is an extremely personal and highly controversial topic on anything you could share with us about that.

Gary Norman: yeah, so I think that i've been a voice in that issue in Maryland even nationally now because.

Gary Norman: I see it as a libertarian at heart i'm a centerist libertarian, so I think as much as as I question it for myself.

Gary Norman: I want people have choice, I fear that, with some movements, like the disability rights movement there's kind of.

Gary Norman: You have to think this certain way to it sometimes, and I think that in my observations into general assembly in Maryland has been true of the disability rights community.

Gary Norman: And I also fear as much as is willing to say doctors need to do better, I don't think anybody is our enemy as a movement.

Gary Norman: I think that our powers and the power relationship and partnership, so a lot of the conversation on this issue, unfortunately, to my point of view, has been very negative like doctors are here to harm people with disabilities.

Gary Norman: I think we need more doctors with disabilities or nurses with disabilities, I think perhaps we need more training to the Community.

Gary Norman: Of those who are medical practitioners without disabilities but I don't think any of them mean harm or are our enemy.

Gary Norman: And so i've promoted the concept and testified in favor of legislation or Maryland because hey I just I think it's A personal choice.

Gary Norman: and B I think it has enough safeguards for the most part in the Statute, at least in Maryland to where it should be a choice for people it doesn't mean that.

Gary Norman: i'm i'm not one to force my beliefs on anyone, so I don't think necessarily that what's good for me is good for the two of you, but I definitely think if you to work with people with disabilities, I don't know for sure.

Gary Norman: You should have that choice and that's why I supported it and then, on a personal level, I don't know if this makes my feeling sound inappropriate or trite.

Gary Norman: But having put down two dogs now I don't see why we can be so compassionate and understanding of our animals, and when we can't be equally the same with our loved ones who are facing terminal illness.

Gary Norman: I just I came to came to the issue in that vein, as well as a dog handler who my two guide dog partners have been the best friends in my life and I wouldn't anything.

Gary Norman: For them, then I wouldn't want from my wife for for myself yeah.

Nadine Vogel: yeah no I I yeah I couldn't agree more.

Nadine Vogel: I couldn't agree more.

Nadine Vogel: it's so you know Gary i'm glad you mentioned your wife, I believe that you referred to your marriage as I think i've heard you say a mixed marriage makeup meaning one person is disabled, the other is not so i'd love for you to share a little bit about that if you if you don't mind.

Gary Norman: yeah i'm was incredibly blessed to meet my wife, with my first guide dog langer and then I kind of consider like the three of us got married together.

Gary Norman: Five years of langers career, he was my bachelor kind of dog and then next five years.

Gary Norman: Our partnership and then in four years of retirement, he was kind of our family dog that my wife him and I got married together and then each of my dogs had been close friends of my wife and just really like our kids in a way, and.

Gary Norman: So I am really blessed to be married and in the way up I think of it as sort of a mixed marriage, where I have a disability.

Gary Norman: And she doesn't I think that's positive and negative I think perhaps what I told some kids at college at a speech I gave a couple years ago you can't on we've the threads of your life so.

Gary Norman: What I like maybe not to have my disability, I think, I think, maybe some days, yes, on the other hand, what I'd be.

Gary Norman: As good of a dog handler or I hope a decent husband I don't know, maybe not.

Gary Norman: would life be as interesting or unique I don't know, maybe not.

Gary Norman: On the other hand, my wife has some incredible disability advocates and good human being.

Gary Norman: she's also had to encounter the same issue, as I have from negative attitudes to bias to people glancing at us in a restaurant or at a bistro because wow there's a guide dog and a blind person and how could this sighted person ever like live with a blind person kind of crap.

Gary Norman: out so it's positive and negative, but I think it's a really rich journey, and I hope my wife finds a way to kind of share her her point of view on kind of the the marriage, with a blind guy.

Nadine Vogel: well. you know.

Nadine Vogel: This interview has been so interesting you know, a couple of times you've referred to the state of the state, if you will, as you know, the inclusion, the revolution.

Nadine Vogel: Right yeah and I love that, and you know we're just about out of time, but before we end I would love for you to share with us and our listeners why you refer to it as a revolution.

Gary Norman: So i've heard that term I was fortunate to travel as a foreign policy fellow that's not the exact title but that's a shorter version but.

Gary Norman: The Marshall Fund in 2008 my first guide dog and i've remained active, both in dialogue policy work, even through a mini grants my.

Gary Norman: Partner Boston and I got for a year from them and then, more recently, at a tech inclusion some in December 2020 and I wish I could say I coined that term, but that would be dishonest.

Gary Norman: I was co moderating the workshop on inclusion, to make sure that disability was discussed in many ways, and we had this really unique former fellow like myself, but from New York say we're living in the inclusion revolution.

Gary Norman: And that just resonated with me and it, it still has because I think we've all lived, not only during negative stuff like covid and all these unfortunate people have died because of it, but we've also lived through this revolutionary revolutionary discussion where.

Gary Norman: I think probably my colleagues at the lichen Commission think there's a lot more work to do, but I feel like maybe people of color starting to be recognized in the way that as white Americans we've never really heard them.

Gary Norman: And so I think it's a revolution in that sense.

Gary Norman: More people are feeling like they have a voice and you know for a country that's based on the world to be free that's that's incredibly not only living with our tenants but that's freeing for our fellow citizens.

Nadine Vogel: Right. wow.

NORMA STANLEY: that's it I think it's part of the revolution is that I think people are realizing the actual power and actually tried to use it and, like you said, the greater Community actually hearing what we've been trying to say for so many years, and so that's the blessing and i'm hoping that it.

NORMA STANLEY: And the people disabilities others who have been overlooked and untapped and neglected, this is our time to make some things happen.

Gary Norman: And what's great about this country is that we have a trajectory or more freedoms, but sometimes we don't tap people we haven't always stopped people of color we haven't always tap people with disabilities and.

Gary Norman: Hopefully these kind of movements are teaching us that there are so many more threads to the fabric that that make this rich whole and, ultimately, like benefit economically and emotionally and spiritually and that will only make us a much better country in the end.

Nadine Vogel: At the end of the day, you know, none of us, or just one thing it's about that intersectionality.

Gary Norman: And I think that.

Nadine Vogel: that's what it's about so Gary we are oh my gosh we are so out of time, I feel like we could have talked for at least another half hour, but I want to thank you so much for joining the show and just illustrating once again that disabled lives matter, so thank you for joining us.

Gary Norman: Thank you for having me on the show.

Nadine Vogel: Absolutely. so norma another great show thank.You. For being my amazing co host.

NORMA STANLEY: Thank you for allowing me to do that.

Nadine Vogel: Absolutely, and to our listeners We look forward to seeing you on another episode of disabled lives matter. bye everybody.

Gary Norman: bye bye.

NORMA STANLEY: bye nice to see. you.

Closing comment:  [Music playing in background.] Thank you for listening to this week's episode of disabled lives matter. We look forward to seeing you next Thursday.  Have a great week!

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