Disabled Lives Matter


August 16, 2021

Disabled Lives Matter
Season 1, Episode 23
Co-Hosts: Nadine Vogel & Norma Stanley
Guest: Leslie Lipson

Intro: [Music playing in background] Disabled Lives Matter... here we go!

Voiceover: Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the disabled lives matter podcast with co-hosts Nadine Vogel and Norma Stanley… yay!

Nadine Vogel: Well Hello everyone, this is nadine vogel your co host of disabled lives matter, this is a podcast but, along with my co host Norma Stanley Hello norma.

NORMA STANLEY: hey. everybody how are you doing today.

Nadine Vogel: Good. This is more than a podcast right norma this is.

Nadine Vogel: it's a movement 

NORMA STANLEY: World changing.

Nadine Vogel:  right and today, this movement is going to grow even more, because we are joined by Leslie lipson and Leslie gosh you are an advocate from an educational standpoint legal strategy about legal and education so i'm just telling us a little bit about yourself.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): Sure, and thank you so much norma and nadine for having me today so um I am an attorney and i've been practicing in the field of disability civil rights for around 20 years.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): And i've done lots of different kinds of work but i'm always just continually attracted to working on behalf of kids especially kids whose.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): Whose behavior other people find challenging it's probably my favorite kinda kind of group that really I feel really fierce about that and.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): And about two and a half years ago, so for about 17 years I was with the Georgia advocacy office, which is a statewide nonprofit doing work.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): on behalf of people with disabilities who experienced abuse and neglect and about two and half years ago I went on my own, and I have my own consulting firm and I do work for businesses and nonprofits and mostly about the kids.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): i'm a parent, I have two kids. in Canada.

Nadine Vogel: so i'm curious what got you interested in disability rights, specifically and then even more so for children.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): Well, I think, like most people in this work, I have a personal genesis story I don't think you can really get away from that, but I have hidden disabilities myself and.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): had some pieces as a kid that were really then occasionally as an adult that had been really challenging and I think I thought that disabled people were something different, and somewhere in college and I was a disability student services and I realized that.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): That was me to.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): Re all have different.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): Different parts of our identity for, and then I decided, I wanted to go to law school and I always wanted to do this, I actually interned in law school in this work and my second year law school and so.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): This is just always been my passion.

Nadine Vogel: got it well you know for norma and me we're both special needs moms and so obviously our passion as well i'm i'm curious, I know, one of the things you were involved in was safe schools initiative could you tell us a little bit about what that is.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): Yes, absolutely so in Georgia, up until I guess about.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): me, maybe 25th no 2012

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): You could restrain and seclude meaning, you could tie up lock up put in a box put it, a cardboard box plywood box i've seen all these you can use ripcords or handcuffs or anything you want to restrain and seclude any kid at anytime for any reason, and not tell their parents.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): And that was that is still the law of the land.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): federally and many states have no legal protections for students experiencing these what we call restraint and seclusion in public schools.

Nadine Vogel: Oh, my gosh.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): And I was the leader but along with lots of other people, I mean it was a big effort to outlaw the use of seclusion in Georgia and we greatly limited the use of restraint and the research is very clear and it makes sense if someone tried to take you and lock you up in a box.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): You fight them really hard on the way the best way to reduce the use of restraint.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): is to reduce the use of seclusion is to outlaw the use of seclution, but I would really like to see restraint, also outlawed, and so I worked on that for years.

Nadine Vogel: And we are.

Nadine Vogel: On protections well i'm curious because i'm actually appauld.

Nadine Vogel: Generally, this is, this is still Okay, so what is happening on a federal level if anything to outlaw this.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): So there currently is and there has been for several years, a federal.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): package of legislation that I think it's called I have to Google, right now, but I think it's called it starts with the K Okay, I just want to find the acronym but it's to.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): To do the same ideas to outlaw the use of restraint and seclusion across the nation, the idea being if you live one mile to the East, a one mile to the West you shouldn't have the experience of restraint and seclusion and generally if you can't do this in you know.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): that some of these actions are considered by the United Nations to be you know illegal.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): Okay, for some reason.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): against kids with disabilities it's okay.

NORMA STANLEY: definitely needs to change.

NORMA STANLEY: i'm sure.

NORMA STANLEY: i'm sure the parents who encounter situations like that are not too happy.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): No, no, I think we have to remember the real victims are kids.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): Were teaching kids you know it's really amazing that we talked about what do we talk about with kids with disabilities, we say what are what our kids are supposed to keep your hands to your.

Nadine Vogel: self.  Right.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): If you're angry what should you use.

Nadine Vogel: Your words.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): Right.

Nadine Vogel: And we went to school, we remember.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): I know i'm enjoying y'all y'all are good y'all are good.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): You can do the presentation.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): So we you know we learned a lot from that.

Nadine Vogel: Right.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): kids are learning. A lot.

Nadine Vogel: i'm shocked to tell you the truth, and I would think this is especially difficult for those students that are on the autism spectrum where behavioral issues, probably come out more.

Nadine Vogel: than most.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): yeah and I think a lot of it is super predictable the kids who are sensory defensive you'll see written in people's IEP when this kids upset do not.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): Because it's very predictable that the kids going to be defensive and it's going to feel like that's a threat.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): then you see people you know who are not looking at that, and then we see school initiate juvenile court charges on kids for behavior That is exactly predictable written verbatim in IEP don't do this.

Nadine Vogel: Right.

Nadine Vogel: right, so if it's in the IEP, this makes this even worse because everybody's supposed to be following the IEP the individualized education plan.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): But if you have you know, unfortunately, in America kids with disabilities, especially kids psychiatric disabilities kids with autism.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): Especially black youth black boys.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): Even kids who are gender diverse or who are LGBTQ on that entire beautiful rainbow.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): kids are perceived to be even more of a threat to go these multiple identities that make.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): Not only are they experiencing really harsh discipline practices um they're expensive experiencing those practices more often and and it's more of them.

Nadine Vogel: RIght.  Oh, my gosh well.


NORMA STANLEY: This has been something that's been going on in you know, in the in the black Community for a long time the whole special education perspective.

NORMA STANLEY: You know when they put the kids in detention or in special programs when they seem to be acting up quote unquote and generally it's because of.

NORMA STANLEY: You know, a special need, if they're on autism spectrum and all these things may not have been diagnosed and they get put into that pipeline of detention and going to jail, of things they don't even realize that they've done and things like that can.

NORMA STANLEY: happen and before you know it lives are ruined and because it's either been undiagnosed or people just don't care and not paying attention to the way they need to be paying attention.

Nadine Vogel: yeah absolutely. well leslie i've heard you said something or you intended to say saying something about you know why is special education.

Nadine Vogel: Not special your education, and you know when I when I first heard that I kind of laughed a little bit, but but it's it's serious, so I wonder if you could explain that a little bit.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): So I don't remember where I read it, and I cannot take credit for it.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): But the special education is often neither special nor education.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): And so, even though the propaganda around special education is it's highly individualized for each kid to get what they need in a therapeutic way you know we know all of this language around it right.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): Well, we know that many things are one size fits none programs that they call it the autism classroom but that doesn't necessarily mean it fits kids needs with autism, one of the problems in America, the way we've structured our education is we've structured it around eligibility.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): And not around services so let's take a service for fun let's take like note taking let's think about all the different.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): types of students that might need note taking right, you might have had a traumatic brain injury or learning disability.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): You might have auditory processing disorder, you might have broken your arm, although you probably wouldn't be eligible for IDA but you get my point, you may have limited mobility they're all of these different areas right that might need a note taker.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): But we make that classification based upon usually eligibility or behavioral support you may have you know kids with OCD coming back after this covid 19 disruption contamination OCD i'm feeling for them.

Nadine Vogel: yeah.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): I really want to.

Nadine Vogel: Talk about that, after as well.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): Right, and so you have like you have like pockets of services like maybe a small groups classroom integrated or.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): Reduced modified homework for kids that have less endurance for homework and that may be kids who have chemo right now, or maybe kids who are just run out after what is necessary at school, but instead we've created these.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): Eligibility and placement our locations totally based upon.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): Disability labels which really isn't smart fiscally isn't smart for human rights perspective isn't smart for our Community definitely isn't a smart smart for our families.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): Your parents kids have disabilities you got your kids in different schools have different schedules and different places, siblings are such a protection for kids okay.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): I have a lot to say about it.

Nadine Vogel: We have to read to go to commercial break, but as soon as we come back norma I think we should really start talking about you know covid and everybody go back to school and what that's gonna look like relative to these topics so listeners don't go anywhere we'll be back in just a minute.

Voiceover:  And now it's time for a commercial break.

Hi, I'm here to talk to you about springboards. 2021, 7th annual disability connect forum, save the date. It's happening Tuesday, September 14 via live stream, you know, we tag the phrase, quote unquote, We Are Better Together. Why? Because together we can achieve change, especially since this forum focuses on the intersectionality persons with disabilities. The lgbtqa+ community and Veterans, the major issues impacting these constituents and more So join us for the conversation again, the 2021 disability connect Forum livestream, Tuesday, September 14th, to learn more. Purchase a ticket and register visit w-w-w consult springboard.com. Front slash 2021 - disability - connect Front / hashtag. Welcome. Can't wait to see you there.

Voiceover:  And now back to our show.

Nadine Vogel: Hello Hello everyone and welcome back to today's episode of disabled lives matter I am joined by my fabulous co host norma Stanley norma.

NORMA STANLEY: How you guys doing.

Nadine Vogel: Good and we in Norma I are just so excited to be speaking with leslie lipson today we're talking about.

Nadine Vogel: The state of the state, relative to children with disabilities in the school system and some of the horrific horrific practices that are still going on.

Nadine Vogel: So so Leslie let me ask you this, I mean so many kids have been out of at a physical school right, you know being homeschooled which we know is just a whole issue right there but.

Nadine Vogel: Some of the things that you're talking about you know how do we successfully reintegrate I guess i'll say children with disabilities back into in person learning and then you know let's talk about what that actually means relative to some of the issues that we've been talking about.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): So it's going to be fascinating you know, seeing what happens because, like.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): You know we're all three parents of kids with disabilities, like, if I had an eight year old kid with a developmental disability and we've all seen the covid health outcomes for.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): kids a developmental disabilities and eight year olds aren't you know vaccinations a personal decision, but there are no eight year olds that are vaccinated.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): They might not be going back in person. I think one thing is that we do still have I actually just looked I know this is a national Program.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): But just looking quickly at my own state this morning 14.7% of kids 12 to 17 are vaccinated in Georgia.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): So that's 14% of kids eligible for vaccination or and not disability specific right, and so, then we're thinking about kids under the age of 12 that aren't vaccinated at all, and we do know the Community spread is very small within public schools we've got very good data on that now.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): But they're you know, in small pockets, so I think what's going to be interesting what we're seeing nationally, is that districts are.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): or States are having cyber schools like instead of like your school like your teacher doing distance learning they're these now kind of.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): Individual schools, who are cyber who are virtual and then your local schools where you would go for face to face instruction.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): So I think it'll be really interesting to see how schools choose to financially and programmatically continue providing some virtual learning opportunities, especially for kids who.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): I think it's pretty arguable, especially if they're immune compromised it's really not safe yet.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): And then I think I may be so interesting nadine and norma to hear like what you did in August to get your now adults, but your kids ready to go back to school every September like what did y'all do.

Nadine Vogel: Oh, my gosh.


NORMA STANLEY: It was a big deal, I mean I was getting on the school to school clothes and preparing for that whole thing I mean Sierra is just.

NORMA STANLEY: always have just getting her out of the house anyway, even the same thing getting back in the day program was the same thing, I mean you know she just started back this past week and um you know I want to make sure that everything would be the way it needs to be before I was telling her back and.

Nadine Vogel: and for so many kids you know, unless they're in you know you're around school.

Nadine Vogel: Right so so that now is the education stop for a couple of months, but so typically does therapies occupational physical.

Nadine Vogel: right all of the related services so yes kind of working your way back and getting the brain back functioning again.

Nadine Vogel: And and just you know the schedule right I think that's that adjustment is an adjustment for any child typical children when you add disability to that, depending on the nature and severity of the disability I think it's just another layer

NORMA STANLEY: a whole other layer I know .

NORMA STANLEY: Sierra was glad to see her her her colleagues in the day program she was happy to see them all.

NORMA STANLEY: On but again I was rushing back because I wasn't sure and until they made me sure that it was going to be safe for her she wasn't gonna go back so, but they did what they need to do, and everybody there has been excellent, it is all adults, though, so it's a different thing but.

NORMA STANLEY: You know how can I feel for the parents only because you know especially the younger children but it's a whole nother that's a lot of stress on these parents and.

NORMA STANLEY: those who also need to go back to work um it's a lot of stress and that doesn't help when the school system is doing those kinds of things that you're having to address and try to put a stop to in terms of the abuse.

Nadine Vogel: Right and, leslie, I mean correct me if i'm wrong, but I would think you know when kids, especially if you have developmental disabilities behavioral issues.

Nadine Vogel: You know if they're on a break, so to speak, and then you put them back into a more structured environment I would think some of the the behavioral issues kind of come out at least at the beginning.

Nadine Vogel: And i'm assuming that being away from physical space school for so long, this is only going to really pronounce this even more, I mean is that true.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): I mean we're worried to in the literature like where educational folks leadership is talking about what's going on, I think we're all there's a lot of worry about really increased.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): Harsh discipline policies, I mean you could see like a kid who was in first grade and march of 2020 they're going back a third grader well the behavioral expectations for a first grader third grader they're pretty different.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): Right these kids have really lost, you know we're very focused on academic loss which is kind of interesting because I think what we're really going to see, as people have really lost the context of the role of student.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): So, like packing a school lunch opening it up and eating it changing classes, bringing your books going to sleep on time writing the school bus I got all these pieces to being a student.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): That we really I would encourage parents and teachers for kids, especially with kids have disabilities but really with all kids to focus on the role of student before we're focused on this academic learning loss or missed services.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): As an adult like I kind of relate to it, you know when you first go to work for eight hours a day, I mean you are exhausted.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): Right yeah most of us are starting back you know, they were not five days a week restart back three days a week in the office you know, and these kids in school it's going to be like, here we come in August or September and like here you go five days a week, full days I mean it's.

Nadine Vogel: Right.

Nadine Vogel: they're not easing into it.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): No, but I think parents have suggestions for parents.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): would be definitely working back to that schedule try to get in pre planning get your kid to go visit the school meet their teachers, obviously it depends on your where you are.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): Personally, as a family and where you are your State be comfortable with whatever the distancing or mask measures are some state mandated that some dates dates have not.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): And I think, maybe doing some academic bridge work I think most of the things that we usually do to get our kids ready to go back in the fall would be similar.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): um and I think that the most interesting thing and the I think I think this is fascinating because you've done this for many years, is that, whereas normally the school holds all the information about the kid academically and socially.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): Now the parents hold all the information.

Nadine Vogel: And that is interesting.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): isn't it.

Nadine Vogel: It is.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): doesn't love the performance, who really knows what's.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): going on with that kid.

Nadine Vogel: Well, and that's true it always I always said, the parent is.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): An A-D, but I think a lot of parents who kind of throwing their hands up and said.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): they're special they're educators and I didn't really know how to teach my kid but i've heard from parents who said they told me my kid could never do X, Y or Z.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): And over and over the past 16 months, you know what I can do that they've done it interesting and then I think, on the other side, I think you know, there are a lot of, especially for psychiatric disabilities covid it has not been kind.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): Right, a lot of kids and then we kids with acquire trauma drain this time.

Nadine Vogel: Oh yeah absolutely.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): Post traumatic stress.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): Now we have 600,000 people that died in America there's a lot of grief.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): And then there's been a lot of financial repercussions for families and we've been through.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): You know incredible.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): Time of.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): Protests and attention on.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): on racial terror and injustice and all of these things our kids have experienced since they've been before they've been they haven't been students, so I think we have a we have a lot to come to right.

Nadine Vogel: Well, you know it's interesting because I think he said before I come back you said a child left a first grader now they're back a third grader and behavioral expectations, but I just went through my head was what about the child that left as an elementary school student.

Nadine Vogel: and is now in middle school or junior high school or the left to junior high another in high school.

Nadine Vogel: So a whole nother range of processes, maybe they never changed classes, you know we don't entry school, and now they have to do it so.

Nadine Vogel: I just you know made me think of all of these issues that you know, especially as parents, I always felt like the burden of proof of needed for a child, the burden of just about everything is often on the parent, and I think this is no different.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): you're not feeling like that that is let's not get i'm saying like let's let's honor the experience of what is educational advocacy in America.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): It is 100% people will image kids with disabilities as a burden, I would clearly argue it's not the kids have disabilities is the burden it's the system, yes, that puts all of the all of all of the the pulling all the levers pretty much is on parents.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): Who already are parents, because of disabilities already in a country that's pretty hostile.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): To to family supports.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): yeah in general right so I think that's really true and I appreciate you saying it nadine because I just don't think I can't I read an article yesterday piss me off sorry that's.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): made me so mad that was on parent engagement.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): Okay, like, I mean I was i'm all for parent engagement, but what i've seen in my career.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): is very powerful parents.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): Who can't pull levers, they need to pull, for you know for 1000 reasons.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): That it's not about unfortunately one of the things that binds us together as parents, because of disabilities is it actually does not matter your race or your income listen, some of it helps a lot, but like people can't pull the levers, because the system is so unbalanced.

Nadine Vogel: Right.


Leslie Lipson: What do you think.

Nadine Vogel: yeah I mean certainly the systemic inequalities, and I mean it exists, I always used to feel bad when we would go in and have our IEPs and I have like 20 people there, I had all my peeps you know one to match the school districts.

Nadine Vogel: And I always worried about you know the parents who couldn't attend the IEP because they couldn't get off from work now you have the financial ability to do that or or English is not their first language right, I mean it's.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): Not their language at all.

Nadine Vogel: Right, I mean it's confusing enough for those of us who actually it is you know, and it was always very upsetting to me to see a child who I knew.

Nadine Vogel: Could you know needed just as much, if not more support, as my daughter yet couldn't access what they needed because of that that was really and I think the parents just felt.

Nadine Vogel: an even greater burden because of that, and something that they didn't have control of I mean norma if you had I don't you feel that way.

NORMA STANLEY: Absolutely, and you know because of lack of control, depending on i'm still finding out again about parents who.

NORMA STANLEY: are not getting some of the services they need and they've been here all these years, I mean there's one mother would just call me the help.

NORMA STANLEY: She had a 21 year old I mean you know he's just coming out of the system, but she has not had the help.

NORMA STANLEY: That supposed to be there, she lives in a place where he can't walk he's immobile in terms of physical challenges and another one level to the House to the next, just to put a bed and put him on it and slide him down.

NORMA STANLEY: Imagine, I mean this is a 68 year old woman.

NORMA STANLEY: You know i'm so she's going through all this and it's like i've got to find a way to get into some help so much is still being you know falling through the cracks when all these organizations out there is one of the things that really concerns me.

Nadine Vogel: is not unique just to.

Nadine Vogel: Georgia right.


Nadine Vogel: this is in all states, but just something I did want to ask relative to Georgia, specifically i've had many parents of kids with disabilities tell me that when it comes to special education or services in the state of Georgia, that it's Atlanta and it's every place else.

Nadine Vogel: That it's very unequal, if you will, even just within the state is that is that true.


Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): Interesting data on it, depending on what you're after so obviously as norma as nodding school funding is a huge difference and there's actually a lawsuit currently in Georgia is going on for quite some time around funding.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): equalization between rural and urban but that's for sure, an issue now it's interesting like what your goals are so a lot of rural places don't hide away or segregate to the same level of kids with disabilities, because that's pretty expensive.

Nadine Vogel:  Interesting.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): so from the fabric sense like who do we go to faith, who do we worship with.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): And who and who do we hang out with on birthday parties and the weekends and who's in my class and who are family, friends you'll see, in a sense of the data says a higher level of social an academic integration.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): and rural America, because they just don't have what we call like a shadow system like separate church services.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): and separate transportation and separate have you know separate social things like they don't have the infrastructure to provide the shadow system that is this segregated world.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): um now for some people, they say, you know I really want all that this you know, bring this to my rural county um we think, as far as the lifetime, you know, having more friends and family and connections, because the unfortunate thing is we're not always going to be around at some point.

Nadine Vogel: right.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): But yes it is Atlanta and outside of Atlanta, especially when you think about psychiatric services, I think there are two or three child psychiatry south of macon.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): A number of play that's mostly like I think one or two about Boston three or four in savannah I mean, so we definitely have and for medical services, you know people got to drive to Atlanta, all the time, you know.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): Norma I feel like I should not be talking y'all should be.

NORMA STANLEY: Talking, no, no.

Nadine Vogel: Listen.

NORMA STANLEY: the whole dental situation.

NORMA STANLEY: I mean people come in Tennessee for to get dental care for their kids with disabilities, because a lot of dentists still don't get it, so this globalization that we all tend to go to and people.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): yeah.

NORMA STANLEY: yeah DVD foundation is where we go.

NORMA STANLEY: select yeah it's a real situation it's a real situation, I mean i'm coming from New York New York actually used to have a really big programs for people with disabilities, I didn't know that when I was living in New York or I would have stayed, but I love living in Atlanta.

NORMA STANLEY: You know until I got here that new york had to do some work too.

NORMA STANLEY: Still it's still.

Nadine Vogel: Live we had lived in Los Angeles, when my.

Nadine Vogel: Older one was was young, and we ended up in a charter school but yeah there were so many issues and we went after the schools, but we moved back east.

Nadine Vogel: We were very specific about where we move, not just the state like we had moved to New Jersey, which county and what part of the county all because of the things you're talking about Leslie.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): Burden that's such a burden, not your kid, but you have to that you have to structure the rest of your life around that and can I tell you about something I read recently that's been cracking me up.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): It said.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): Only in America, do we insure our teeth and our eyes and then the rest of our body separately like who came up with that i've been laughing I mean it really is asinine.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): Like who decided it was teeth eyes and the rest of your body like why isn't it like your left hand.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): Your kidney and the rest of I mean it really is. Okay, sorry.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): you're you're in.

Nadine Vogel: Our society we treat physical health so different than mental health.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): Well, that would be another now let's just be clear we're not insuring psychiatric health but that's.

Nadine Vogel: not really but, again, even the stigma in the schools and how the children are supported or not again, it is very different.

Nadine Vogel: And I find that going to go back to what you said earlier, the burden on the parents, I find that if the child has a behavioral related issue.

Nadine Vogel: Somehow it always ends up being more you know what is the parent not doing right or not doing right to cause that versus a child that has CP OK, we get it.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): Oh no they'll still go after your your your pre you're in utero sorry yeah they'll still go after you so yeah the joke, the joke and it's not funny but the conversation amongst strategy is this first they'll blame the child.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): And then they'll blame the parents yeah very rarely to hear people say what.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): In our instruction is faulty one in our assumptions is faulty what our methodology is faulty what the grouping of kids and the match of the teacher is is problematic.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): But those would be questions that would be running through because you know the faith obligation, the free and appropriate public education obligation does not exist between a parent and the child.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): right and it is not a child's obligation to behave well enough for the school to educate the kid right the faith obligation is between.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): A parent i'm sorry between a school and a student I just spent this morning working actually for Georgia, Casa, who i'm huge fan of and thank Thank God.

Leslie Lipson (she, her, hers): that the obligation is not supposedly legally other you know it is on depending on every single parent, because that would really, really further disadvantaged kids, but we also know it it's just a lot of untruth about it right.

Nadine Vogel: Right right absolutely.

Nadine Vogel: Absolutely well oh my gosh I just I just saw we are out of time.

Nadine Vogel: This flew I I know there's so much more we can talk about but Leslie Thank you so much for joining us today, this is a topic that is so important in.

Nadine Vogel: it's kind of hidden nobody's really talking about it too much, and I know that the the information that you shared while coming from Georgia, I know is very real in most states, if not all states around the country in some way, shape or form, so thank you so much for joining us norma.

Nadine Vogel: Thank you for another great session and for our listeners, thank you for joining us on another episode of disabled lives matter norma take us away.

NORMA STANLEY: You guys it's been a wonderful show be blessed until next time.

Nadine Vogel: Okay bye everybody.

NORMA STANLEY:  bye bye.

Closing comment:  [Music playing in background.] Thank you for listening to this week's episode of disabled lives matter. We look forward to seeing you next Thursday.  Have a great week!

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